Caroline McGowan: 00:00:00

My life is in a really cool chapter. I have this job that I really like. Yeah. I also have this music thing and getting to the point where I've been able to create these two worlds for myself to live is really awesome. And now I have to ask myself shit, we got here, but what's next?

Derek Brown: 00:00:14

Hey, what's up everybody? I'm Derek, founder and c e o of Bunches and you're host here at Start Something. Let's go. I'm here with Caroline McGowan, musician Fashionist. It's good to see you. Thanks. Good to see you too. Yes. So we're gonna jump right in with what I warned you about are these silly questions that we call hacks. Every guest gets them, and so when I'm asking you these questions, I'm not asking your favorite, okay? I'm asking who you are as a person. Listeners want to know. So if you were a global city, any city in the world, what city do you think you would. You're

Caroline McGowan: 00:00:54

gonna hate this answer. I might. I think

Derek Brown: 00:00:58

Nashville. I do not. That is my answer. Oh, nice. Yeah. Even before I moved here, that was my answer. Why Nashville?

Caroline McGowan: 00:01:06

It really agrees with me. I've lived a couple different places. I'm originally from Des Moines and I lived in Portland, Oregon for a while as well. And, I did some city shopping before I finally arrived at Nashville. Okay. And I scored these different cities, dc, Chicago, New York, Miami, la I scored them on things that I like that are important to me. And I liked that Nashville really feels like home, but it can do things at a global scale, like specifically in music. Yeah. And I just thought. I like having it all and feel like Nashville is a town that has it all. So what were some of

Derek Brown: 00:01:40

your criteria

Caroline McGowan: 00:01:41

then? Parking

Derek Brown: 00:01:42

spots? did you actually score? Are you like a spreadsheet numbers kind of person?

Caroline McGowan: 00:01:46

No I'm like an armchair score. Okay. If you like, that's like a 20 minute Ted Talk. I'll give another time, but Okay. But I do have a rubric for thinking about cities. Just the general, you get a general pulse on how comfortable people are. Yep. In their friend groups and in their jobs For sure. And with their, with means to the future. I liked that there were parking spots people could get around. Yeah. And go at their own pace. So you were serious about parking spots? I was dead serious. I know that sounds so weird, but there's something very freeing about knowing you can get when you want, where you want. And you

Derek Brown: 00:02:19

don't to think about it a hundred percent.

Caroline McGowan: 00:02:21

Yeah. And weather's part of it. Yeah. I like a stylish city. I think Nashville's a stylish city for sure. It's like

Derek Brown: 00:02:27

Yellowstone Chic

Caroline McGowan: 00:02:29

which I'm here for. I love that

Derek Brown: 00:02:30

show. Cool. We're gonna talk about Nashville later. It's near and near to our heart for sure. Second question. If you were a fruit, what fruit would you be? Again, not your favorite.

Caroline McGowan: 00:02:40

I the fruit that came to mind is a.

Derek Brown: 00:02:44

Wow. I don't think I've ever had someone answer a plum. I've asked these questions hundreds, literally hundreds of times. I think plum is overlooked.

Caroline McGowan: 00:02:53

It is the, it has to be a perfectly ripe plum, of course. Okay. Not just any plum will do, but I think a perfect plum is juicy. Crunchy. Yep. Got a little tart and sweet. Yep. and it's not too much fruit. Sometimes you get a honey crisp apple, the size of your head. Too much fruit. Yeah. You want something that leaves you wanting just a little bit more. It's

Derek Brown: 00:03:13

like snack size. Yeah. Yeah. And it has a solid core. Yeah. You're not getting through it. Something integral. Yeah. You're not gonna break it solid core. Yeah, a hundred percent. If you were a beverage, what beverage would you be? Alcoholic, caffeinated. Doesn't matter.

Caroline McGowan: 00:03:30

Wow. I'm gonna give. The answer Mint tea. Okay. Warm but refreshing. Yeah,

Derek Brown: 00:03:38

a hundred percent. But also it's not like some teas. Not all teas. A lot of teas are like very flavorful, but mint tea has that extra kind of, yeah. Yeah.

Caroline McGowan: 00:03:47

It leaves an aftertaste, right?

Derek Brown: 00:03:49

You remember mint tea? That's right. You remember your first

Caroline McGowan: 00:03:53

and if you don't want mint, you shouldn't have. Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. Not for everybody. That's right. Like I'm not for everybody. That's right.

Derek Brown: 00:04:00

but potentially. But if you like men too. Yeah. Yeah. It might be for you. I don't know. Again, I, this is the fourth question is where I have to remind everyone. Not your favorite cuz it's so easy to go there. Okay. If you were a genre of music personified what genre would you be?

Caroline McGowan: 00:04:16

I love a good baseline. Okay. I don't know. But I

Derek Brown: 00:04:20

can't, that narrows it down though. Yeah. There's a lot of genres who don't care about bass. Yeah. Shout out to Megan Trainor. They don't

Caroline McGowan: 00:04:26

care. Hey, I love pop music. Yeah. But I like, I think just I'll be dated too, probably early two thousands pop. Okay. Or I don't know. That's, this is a really hard question, but

Derek Brown: 00:04:38

that's like peak timber. Yeah. Timberland

Caroline McGowan: 00:04:42

baselines. Oh my gosh. That was, can I go that? I want that to be my answer.

Derek Brown: 00:04:46

I think you might be cheating a little bit, but you did say early two thousands

Caroline McGowan: 00:04:50

pop. Yeah. It's either gonna be, it's either gonna be really funky. Okay. Like in an eighties Motown way. Okay. Or it's gotta

Derek Brown: 00:04:59

be, not like Bruno Mars Funk. I love

Caroline McGowan: 00:05:01

Bruno Mars. Okay. So he could count, but he, I feel like. I feel like he is pulling references from Oh, a hundred percent. That golden era. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So either that would be my genre or probably. Overly lyrical stuff that you have to think about. Cause a long-winded person If I were a genre of music, it would be something you'd have to pay attention to in

Derek Brown: 00:05:24

order to enjoy it. So now we've gone from JT with Timberland to like Beethoven C Concertos or something. Definitely not that far.

Caroline McGowan: 00:05:31

Okay. I'm not that smart. I feel like that's a smart person's answer. Yeah. Maybe

Derek Brown: 00:05:36

I don. Wow. What's yours? Hiphop. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Am a hundred percent hiphop. Also appreciate a good baseline, but also love mastery of words, right? Yes. So written, verbal, et cetera. It's like the it's poetry and motion. Literally. I love it. Yeah,

Caroline McGowan: 00:05:54

I love it. That brain skill of being able to. Adapt at light speed with your words. Oh yeah. That recall. That's crazy. It's just incredible to

Derek Brown: 00:06:02

me. Yeah, a hundred percent. Last but not least, if you were an animal, you saw it coming. You had to have seen it coming. If you were an animal, what animal would you be? Man.

Caroline McGowan: 00:06:15

An animal. A

Derek Brown: 00:06:17

dolphin.

Caroline McGowan: 00:06:18

A dolphin. Sociable creatures. Yep. They're, but they get to be. Yeah, I

Derek Brown: 00:06:25

like that they have a little bit of troll to them too, which I can like a little sarcasm. Yeah, they're like the redditors of the ocean. Like they they crank they have a sense of humor. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah that's good. So would you say that you are, let me read it back to you. A Nashville plum min, early two thousands pop thing, Timberlake and Timberland Dolphin

Caroline McGowan: 00:06:44

kind of person. Yeah, that's probably how I'll describe myself from now on.

Derek Brown: 00:06:48

Okay, you're welcome. I'll send it to you after. Yeah. Thank you so much. You can update your, So speaking of music in early two thousands, pop, this is a little bit sooner. We're moving into the deep dive portion of the show now. Again, buckle up. Yeah, buckle up. Yeah. Talk to me about this mug. Oh,

Caroline McGowan: 00:07:02

This Spice Girl's mug that I miss. I dunno where it went off. Oh, no sore subjects. It didn't make the move with you. I bought that in 2008 at the Spice Girls reunion tour in Chicago. That's unbelievable. It. Epic. It's it was so epic that like I blacked out and I barely remember the show because I just, from the music the whole time, But yeah, not like I didn't just order that Spice Girl's mug that didn't just fall into my lap. I drove from Des Moines to Chicago, bought a hundred dollars nosebleed ticket and purchased that $30 mug myself,

Derek Brown: 00:07:40

that's even better of a story than I thought I was expecting, oh, it's a vintage store in Portland. I used to go every day. That's so much

Caroline McGowan: 00:07:47

better. Oh, I'm proud of that thing. Yeah, I know where it went though. I'm so sad.

Derek Brown: 00:07:51

So what about this dress? Did it make the move?

Caroline McGowan: 00:07:54

Oh yeah. This is a. Wow. You must know a lot about me now.

Derek Brown: 00:08:00

That was for, it was in that she realized what she's gotten into. Yeah. Here I

Caroline McGowan: 00:08:04

am. This was for a themed recital for voice

Derek Brown: 00:08:07

lessons. Okay. So is this around the time you fell into music?

Caroline McGowan: 00:08:12

I thi I I think I was in, I joined the church choir when I was like eight years old. In Iowa. In Iowa? Yeah. Yeah. And this is in Iowa too. I think this. Junior year of high school. Yep. Would've been spring of junior year of high school. And I think I found that my mom found that for me at a thrift store saying Green Finch and Lineburg from, those are both

Derek Brown: 00:08:34

towns in Ireland from

Caroline McGowan: 00:08:35

green Finch and Lineburg line Bird, I think like it's been a long time. This is a deep cut memory. Okay. But it's from Sweeney Todd. Oh, okay. So it was like, I. I'm trying to look like the heroin in a weird,

Derek Brown: 00:08:49

Obscure musical. It's fantastic, by the way. Big Johnny Depp fan. Yeah. So good. It is really good. Abnormally good. But not as good as your fashion endeavors. Oh. And so on screen can find these

Caroline McGowan: 00:09:04

Oh man. Yeah. So this photo is of like a end of the year fashion show for a high school program that I was a part of. There was a kind of an arts and magnet. that was downtown Des Moines that offered classes that my high school out in the suburbs didn't offer. Okay. One of which was a fashion design intensive class. So for junior year and senior year of high school, I took half the day off of school, like my regular school, and went to this commuter school and learned how to sew and make a collection. And then at the end of the year, we had like a capstone fashion show for people to come too. And we had to do an avantgarde piece. So I went to Burger King and I. It's hundred. How many did it take? A hundreds. Yeah. That's wild. I don't remember how many it was. It's been a really long time. But yeah, then I stapled them together.

Derek Brown: 00:09:53

That's amazing. Have you always been creative? Yeah. Like even when you were knee high to a tote stool? Totally. I don't, what's the thing now?

Caroline McGowan: 00:10:00

I, yeah. I'm basically like, I was raised as an only child. Like I have two sisters that are 10 years older than I am. Yeah. But I had a lot of time alone and so like in my room, and a lot of art supplies at my disposal. Yeah. So I spent a lot of time in my imagination and yeah, I've always there, there's always something going on upstairs,

Derek Brown: 00:10:18

Yeah. And so that usually works its way out in art, music, fashion, other. That's all I can think of right now. Yeah. Writing. Writing, yeah. Probably. Yeah. You write your own. On lyrics. Yep. Yeah, that's certainly a great outlet as well. And speaking of writing, you've been published, this is a slightly different kind of picture than the previous two We've seen. What's going on here?

Caroline McGowan: 00:10:40

As I, in my early twenties as I was exploring the kind of identity I wanted to have for myself Yeah. As a grown woman. I was curious about the fashion industry having done the fashion program in high school and it was a big Cosmo girl, big Cosmopolitan magazine, fan subscriber. Oh yeah. Totally. Wow. And for a couple years they did a conference for Cosmo Super fans, anyone that wanted to attend who'd go and they would basically, it was such a cool event. Pretty much. It's like they performed the magazine live or something like they, this is in New York? This is in New York. I flew to New York two years in a row for this. Cause I liked it so much the first time I went again, but Wow. But they basically set up a conference that was all day influencers. Women leaders, entertainment personalities, talking about, just being inspirational and talking about their jobs very candidly. Yeah. And it was called Fun, fearless Life. And it was a, huh? Yeah, it was a, I'm not being as articulate as I want to be, but it was a really well organized way for someone like me who considered the entertainment world to be so otherworldly, to be so sure outside of my reach. It gave me an access point to go and. In a chair and watched this turnstile of celebrities and public personalities come and talk about their lives. Candidly, it was very humanizing to the it was very humanizing to the. Entertainment world to me. Oh, I see. In a way. Yeah. Which I thought was really fabulous. And at the time I thought maybe I wanted to write for Cosmo or something. Okay. And they did have an opportunity that they opened up to, this is where you're getting at with being published, I think. Sure. Yeah. They had an opportunity for people who wanted to submit articles to Hearst to get published based on certain prompts. So I went through their application process and I started to receive prompts, and one of the prompts that they sent, I used to be famous and now I'm. And so I took this prompt because I had in a couple years prior, been a beauty queen Yeah. I,

Derek Brown: 00:12:36

In one of the many

Caroline McGowan: 00:12:37

lives that you've lived. Yeah, I've lived a few lives Yep. At this point. But I was Miss Oregon in the Miss America Organization for your 2011. And it's a really fascinating experience to, to be a celebrity overnight. You go from being a wannabe contestant to. the face of an organization in a matter of seconds. Yep. And then for 365 days you are you're the face on all the merch. You're the one that they get signed up for the speaking events. Yep. You tour the state and go to Miss America and compete for that title. And it holds a lot of public persona, responsibility. And it's rare anymore that anyone would know who their misstate is. I don't know who Miss Tennessee is right now. But there's still a lot of opportunities that can be opened up to someone who holds that title so

Derek Brown: 00:13:21

well, I think of the misstates and correctly if I'm wrong, but like they're almost like internal ambassadors. A lot of ambassadors would go to other countries and say, this is American culture, how can we translate? Whereas Miss States often, Internal ambassadors, this is what's the org is about, this is what our state is about, and like embodying that, that culture. Is that accurate or?

Caroline McGowan: 00:13:40

think that's accurate. Okay. And it used to be, it's not what it once was, 50 years ago Sure. When um, miss States were making a lot of money and going around the state and kind of taking this responsibility on, and there was such few programming that people still watch. There was. There just wasn't as much on tv, so people watched the Miss America pageant more regularly and people knew what was going on, but anymore there's still a lot of weight to it. That's a whole, that's a whole other topic for a whole nother day, probably. But for that article, which is why we brought this up, yeah. I wrote and I wrote about my experience and able to get in cosmo.com, which

Derek Brown: 00:14:13

was really, that is awesome. Full circle. Yeah. Maybe we'll link that article in the show notes if it's okay by you. Oh yeah, that's fine. Yeah. It is a good read, everyone. So you did win Miss Oregon, but you're really a Miss Iowa. That's where you spent the majority of your upbringing, is that right? You graduated high school? Yeah,

Caroline McGowan: 00:14:31

from I'm, yeah, I'm from WA, Iowa, which is west of Des Moines. Yep. It's a suburb. How

Derek Brown: 00:14:37

do you think that kind of. Life suburban Des Moines, suburban Iowa has framed your worldview now, right? Earlier you were talking about like the cities that you wanted to visit, dc, New York, Nashville, Chicago, yeah. Et cetera. Like what about being brought up in Iowa has stuck with you even through these many lives that you've lived versus some things that maybe. You're okay leaving behind, or not leaving behind and forgetting, but maybe leaving behind just in Iowa and every time you go back home, it's reminiscent.

Caroline McGowan: 00:15:13

Yeah, iowa is pretty flat. Iowans won't tell you that. They'll say there's a lot of hills but it is actually pretty flat. There's different heights of corn. Different corn. That's funny. I've never used that before, but I might use that. There's you're limited to the. Okay. If you don't have any land of your own. Sure. And I am from a suburb, so things were pretty well paved. And so your life had to live in between the paved things from your friend's basement Yep. To school, to the mall, to the football game. Yep. And back home and then back into your room where, like I said, I spent a lot of time developing a wild imagination, So I think with. You do develop a wild imagination about the world and cities and what it would mean to live there, because there's this sense that everywhere that you live might be more exotic than where you are for sure. Yeah. And so it creates this This hunger in me, it created a hunger. Some people, they really get by well in the comfort of having a hometown and they can thrive there and they don't have the curiosity to see the outside world because everything's so self-contained there. You can have everything you need and have a quiet, lovely life. But for some of us people who leave myself it creates this kind of, Fiery curiosity to go out and see as much as I possibly can, because I feel like there's so much that happens in the world that you're not exposed to as a kid, which I think right, for better and for worse, I think there's a naivete to my personality that allows me to see things through rose colored glasses sometimes. Sure. But there's also an appetite to understand the world. and that's what's led me to live a couple cities Yeah. Around the country and always keep one eye open for what might be next.

Derek Brown: 00:17:01

Yeah. That's amazing. I grew up, or I didn't grow up, I grew up of everywhere, but graduated high school from a town called Farmville. It's exactly what you think. Wow. But and I had the same kind of inclination. Something I've noticed as I've lived in different. Is, I have friends that grew up in New York and the places that we would call home and mundane in between the paved pieces, right? They see as exotic. And so it's interesting like putting yeah, ourselves in other people's shoes and having the empathy to say oh, this place is exotic. And so everywhere we, we go take a piece of that and that becomes like part of. Aggregate itself, which is a pretty, pretty interesting thing. I think. So as an accidental bu beauty queen. Fashion designer, musician, writer, publisher, cosmopolitan, conference goer, what did you wanna be when you

Caroline McGowan: 00:17:47

grew up? I think I really wanted to be a singer and the, because singing has always been my first love If. If I'm in my house by myself, I'm probably singing. If I'm in the car, I'm probably singing. Yeah. It's what I do. And it was something that I was decent enough to get into the, to get into the choirs when I was in school. Sure. And I think, there's, you're just impressionable Yeah. When you're growing up. And I think that becomes part of, that became part of my identity early on. Yeah. But because I loved it so much, I didn't wanna pursue it because I was afraid that if I pursued it with the level of energy that you pursue a job that I would fall out of love with. So interesting. It took me until I was like 25 years old to say, I think I actually wanna be a singer now. Yeah. And I'm actually, I need to go figure out what that means because I've always really wanted to do that.

Derek Brown: 00:18:38

Do you wanna be famous again?

Caroline McGowan: 00:18:41

Famous again? It's hard to say if I was even really famous the first time. Yeah.

Derek Brown: 00:18:45

At least like G list celebrity,

Caroline McGowan: 00:18:47

right? Yeah. Z if that's even an option. I understand the responsibility of being in the spotlight. And the function that it serves and how to do that job in a way that would be an advantage over someone that had not done that job before. Yeah. Because it is a job to be in the public spotlight. Sure. Lots of responsibilities. Yeah. It's something. at its best is absolutely electrifying. To know that what you have to say and what your opinion is and who you are could be of value to someone else. There's something about that. Appeals to me, just as an artist, as a creator, I have this inherent need to make and to give, right? So that kind of comes with the territory of, if you're doing something really well creatively, you have to give it to people. And if you're gonna give it to people, they're gonna want more of it. And if they're gonna want more of it, then it's this never ending cycle where you better be ready for people to want more of you. Yeah. So with that's wanna be famous just for the sake of being famous? No. I think I would be taking a different path in my life and it would probably involve a lot more plastic surgery, and I don't know. A lot more gloss Yeah. Than I have if that was really, if that was really the goal. But there's something really motivating about knowing that you can impact people with your message and what you have to say, which my favorite part of the job was going around to smaller communities. and being able to engage with people that don't have access to entertainment may never, they may never go see a big major concert in their life. Do you

Derek Brown: 00:20:23

play smaller shows now because of that? I'm

Caroline McGowan: 00:20:25

trying to intentionally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that's, I'm still just getting off the ground with my music career. Sure. In that sense. Yeah. That's part of, that's what I'm working on right now.

Derek Brown: 00:20:34

Yeah. That's awesome. And that's a good segue here. So 2018, First open mic. Night. What made you take that step? I know you either actually or proverbially keep a bucket list. Sure. Was that one of the things on your bucket list and you just decided, hey, it's time to

Caroline McGowan: 00:20:52

check it off? Oh yeah. I was over. I felt like I was overdue at that point. Okay. I was kicking the can on actually getting out and doing it.

Derek Brown: 00:20:59

What do you think that barrier

Caroline McGowan: 00:21:00

was? Confidence in my ability to play. Interesting. I I decided I wanted to move to Nashville in 2016, and I bought a guitar like within months of that. Was that George Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's so funny. I forgot that. Forgot that name. You know a lot about me. Yeah. This is just what's the name? We do our work here. Yeah. Really? What's that? A nard wire? Whatever.

Derek Brown: 00:21:24

You tried to I my hair,

Caroline McGowan: 00:21:26

but never

Derek Brown: 00:21:27

say never. Yeah. That's, if Elon can do it, I can do it. Yeah.

Caroline McGowan: 00:21:31

Yeah, so I bought a guitar, like when I moved to Nashville in 2016. So I did, couldn't really, couldn't play anything. Okay. On guitar. I. Bought it and had to figure out how to play it. And I knew that I, and I hadn't written any songs, so there was like a year or so that it took me just like actually figuring out how to play chords and

Derek Brown: 00:21:48

write a song. Yeah. That's fascinating. You were a singer trying to figure out how to become a musician. Yes. Yeah. And self-taught? I took some lessons.

Caroline McGowan: 00:21:57

Okay. Some somewhat self-taught, like I got through some of the cowboy chords. Yeah. G C D E minor. Yeah. And I I'm still pretty much at that level, just a little. better. Okay. and the cowboy chords enough to play a gig, but that's about it.

Derek Brown: 00:22:12

Okay. Do you think that, I don't wanna call it a limitation, but certainly parameters. Around your ability to musically express. Do you think that has defined what genres you are like in and which genres you play in and the kind of music you write, or it's no, it's actually the other way around. I know what kind of music I like to. and want to write, and then I figure out how to make it,

Caroline McGowan: 00:22:40

it's limiting. Okay. Yeah. It is limiting. Yeah. It's allowed. There's not everyone likes to eat one type of food. Not everyone likes to listen to one type of music. Sure. And it would be so thrilling to be able to express myself in every genre that I love. Yeah. But out of convenience and what I just conveniently happened to be into. Right now Yeah. Is country music and have been Yeah. For years and years. And so it's I love the format. I lo I like the way that songs get written and I like that it's accessible to me and my skillset. Yeah. So that's something that I can run towards.

Derek Brown: 00:23:16

And this is the Caroline Kid project? Yes. Yes. Yeah. And that's the current. Iteration of you? Or do you always keep a few proverbial balls in the air? Like how does, how do you think through that?

Caroline McGowan: 00:23:27

I have, there was a project I did before Caroline Kidd called Pre Reign. Pre Reign, yeah. Yeah. And that was, that would be an example of music that I love to make that I can't make myself. So when you say, is that limiting? I'd say yes, because I love the Pre Rain project. It was so fun, but it would take me a lot of UPS skill. in a digital audio workstation. Yeah. To get my brain, to get my brain on paper. Yeah. And it just hasn't, it's been more important to me to express myself through lyrics. And so that's led me down this path of Yeah. Country music, which I think ultimately is a better expression of who I am as a person. So that's how that gets prioritized.

Derek Brown: 00:24:09

it sounds like to me like you know what the limiting factors are. You taught yourself guitar. You very self-made woman as striking me. Why not learn dolls? Why not pursue breaking down? More limitations? I just don't have enough hours in the day. Yeah. there's only 24.

Caroline McGowan: 00:24:27

Yeah. And the, when I spend too much time with the computer, I get sad. and I just, It's just not what I wanna do. I like that I can, that music can still be an escape. I can go play my guitar for a little while, or do a Cori with other people. Yeah. And just sit around and engage in an analog fashion that's, that makes me feel connected to the art. And when I've, whenever I'm really still like doing art for the sake of art that makes it feel better. And then when I start to think more about being competitive and I, I. Get, I would upskill to a DA as a competitive advantage, but it would take away time from just harvesting inspiration. And there's a lot of people out there that they get their inspiration from working with people that have ideas. And I'd much rather find a team, find someone else who loves doing that, who loves producing to work with. Like I find one thing that I never anticipated about music, which you just can't really understand it from the outside, it's just how much of a team sport it is. Yeah. brings me a lot of satisfaction and joy to think that I might be able to bring people opportunities, throw a producer, some money to do what they love, and I get a product that I feel passionate, that allows me to express a story that I want to tell, or a vibe that I'm trying to capture. I love that not everyone can be the drummer and the lead singer at the same time. So I, it's, it would be awesome to do it all the time, be able to do it all myself, but I find that. I'm always happier with the outcome when it's a team sport. Yeah,

Derek Brown: 00:25:55

that, that's a, that's an amazing point that, it's not just music either, right? Like it's so many walks of life require other, not necessarily require others, but they're more joyous, they're more rewarding when others are involved, which is pretty cool. So I wanna go back to, The moment in my mind, the moment that you started something, specifically this music journey, right? He said the thing, the moment you said, okay, confidence is there, my guitar skills, they're fine. I'm sure you weren't like thrilled with it, et cetera. How did you get over that obstacle to say it's time or did you just sign up, like karaoke and it was just like, I guess I'm doing this now? Yeah. Okay. Showed up. Yeah.

Caroline McGowan: 00:26:42

drank a beer. Yep. Got on stage.

Derek Brown: 00:26:44

Did you drink a beer before signing up?

Caroline McGowan: 00:26:46

Actually, I don't know. I actually usually don't So anywhere near a You don't remember

Derek Brown: 00:26:51

the answers? Yes,

Caroline McGowan: 00:26:52

Yeah. But yeah, I don't know. I've blacked. I've blacked out. I haven't thought about that day in a long time. It was a cafe cocoa. Cause they do the Tuesdays and Thursdays. Oh yeah. Like I don't know if they still do that. It's been a long time since I've gone there. But yeah,

Derek Brown: 00:27:03

I don't know either. That's cool because would you consider that the moment that the current. Projects really started, or is there something before then?

Caroline McGowan: 00:27:13

I would say the music project started probably a year before I even moved here. When I decided that I was going to pursue music in some form of fashion. I was going to karaoke a lot with my friends in Oregon and I had, had performed at Planet Hollywood. I had sang, the national anthem at NBA games. And I had, sang Arias on stages all across the state of Oregon. Yep. I had done a lot as a performer, and I, the only outlet that I had for myself was singing Jolene at Joe's Cellar, so that's actually not true. My song is Call Me By Blondie. Okay. We ever do karaoke,

Derek Brown: 00:27:52

not Chance, Bo. Could you imagine doing that in a karaoke

Caroline McGowan: 00:27:58

You anyway. No, I don't bring opera to karaoke. Yeah. But yeah, so anyways, I'm gonna say I'm at a dive bar, doing karaoke with my friends and one of my buddies who used to work for live Nation and had been very close in the marketing side of the music world in Oregon. I was like, I've seen a lot worse singers come through and make it He's like, you probably do this. Yeah. No, I don't remember how exactly he said it, but he was like, you could probably do it if you wanted to. he's you just need to have four songs. And I was like, four songs. And that just it's like a very permanent memory that plays out slow emotion in my mind. Yeah. You think about all the million of, for forgettable times you go to a bar, but. It just, that conversation was very permanent for me and that really, that was the start of it. I was like, I know I'm gonna do it, but I don't know how it's gonna manifest.

Derek Brown: 00:28:46

It's interesting that you say you don't know how it's gonna manifest, but very early, like he gave you a quantitative concrete goal. Yes. You need four songs and it's, I don't think it's an accident to me that you consider that the. There's a lot of people out there that may be listening or whatever, and they're thinking like, oh, if I could sew or if I could craft, or if I could, write music or art and there's all these dreams. And until it becomes like concrete, like this gentleman planted in your head, incepted in your head. Does that resonate? Is it, do you think it sticks out in your mind so much because it was the first concrete thing where the dream became an.

Caroline McGowan: 00:29:28

It wa it was a bridge to the entertainment world that I never knew existed. I felt, I thought that you had to have been a Mickey Mouse star in order to be anyone in music. Yeah. But that's not true. He, he said there, people start all the time. You, and they started all different levels. They open for the opener. For the opener. Yep. And you can bite off smaller pieces before. Take on Sony music yeah. And I think, coming from a relatively small town, that just seemed like crossing a line into the land of the demigods. Yeah. Because these celebrities are like as immoral as Jesus to you, right? Yeah, they are. Because you just see the pictures and you hear about them and yeah it doesn't feel real. But to have someone give you a homework assignment and say, that could help you start, and he said he said, I could help you. And then like he was nev. I don't know that was ever gonna be a relationship that we had, but he helped me plenty. Yeah. What would you do if someone just gave you a four bullet to-do list?

Derek Brown: 00:30:27

I don't know. I'd probably try to do it. Yeah. Especially if I thought it was gonna change my life. Sure. And it was something I was already passionate about. Yeah. And someone that I, whether through relationship or profession or whatever, implicitly trusted, like this guy obviously knew what he was telling you. He knew about what he was telling you.

Caroline McGowan: 00:30:48

Yeah. Yeah. It's someone with a Michelin star handing you a grocery. Yeah, for sure. Everyone's gotta go to the store. Yeah. Everyone's gotta put the same ingredients into it. Yep. Those were mine.

Derek Brown: 00:30:59

Yeah. That's awesome. And so the time from that point to the decision point to move here was how long? About a year. What happened during that year? Oh

Caroline McGowan: 00:31:07

my gosh. Just like the universe. Started to crumble around me. Okay. I started to date more dead end guys, I tried, when I tell you how many hobbies I tried in Portland to try to make my love affair with that city work it's exhausting. I worked at a chiropractic office, I worked at a hair salon. I took trapeze lessons. I took sewing classes. I did an internship for a reality TV star, I, the leg that I've had. There was a lot of versions of me in a very short amount of time trying to make it work. I always think of Portland like a, like an ex. I wish it would've worked out with like we tried. Yeah, they're a very beautiful person.

Derek Brown: 00:31:47

Seems like your relationship with Portland was always one-sided.

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Oh

Caroline McGowan: 00:31:51

my gosh. Puns from my own life. This is such a deep cut, Derek. This, you know me like better than Yeah.

Derek Brown: 00:31:59

Most people know. Yeah. One sided single from preen listens to it across the a hundred thousand streams recently, which is amazing. Congrats, by the way. So there was also this moment the same year. So post moving to Nashville, you do the one the open mic. There's also this moment In 2018, were you told an Uber driver that you were an artist? Was that the first time? Yeah. That your primary identity? Was an artist musician? Yeah. Does that stick out to you? Oh,

Caroline McGowan: 00:32:28

I'll never forget that ride. Had you ever told yourself that before? No, but I had a friend tell me that one time. Interesting. And I'll never forget it. It was one of the, it was one of the biggest gift. Some people enter your life for a reason. And there's a good friend of mine who I met in Oregon and we were into we were trying to do sketch comedy on YouTube at the time. Okay. Never took off. That checks out though. Yeah. it's part of the wheelhouse. All random shit I've done. Yeah. But anyway, yeah. At one point we, because he and I used to go to get into these long arguments about whether you should put as much art out as possible or whether you should wait for it to be perfect. And so that's an age old question, I think. Yeah. He was always wait till it should be perfect. And I was like, no. Put out as much as possible. Yeah. So that was that was our push and pull. And he, yeah. I dunno. He told me that I was an artist and it was just the first time that anyone had ever told me that. Cause I had never thought that, I always thought that I was someone who wanted to be an artist. Someone who admired artists, had my favorite artists, but the artists were of a different breed, a different cut of cloth or something.

Derek Brown: 00:33:33

Yeah. You didn't make it work in Portland or couldn't make it work in portland. Some may say, wouldn't make it work in Portland. Maybe supposed to be here. Fast forward you moved to Nashville 2018, big year. First open mic. You tell yourself and others that you're an artist for maybe the first time. Fast forward another couple years. Still in Nashville. what's going on now? Where are you in the journey

Caroline McGowan: 00:33:59

now to 2023? Sure. I'm, I feel like an important detail of my time in Nashville is that I haven't just. Pursuing music. Sure. Like I moved to town with this guitar. I didn't know how to play and I started applying for jobs on Craigslist and had this weird, I had, I personally have a strange job history. I am a philosophy major. Yep. That has fashion design, background and musical background. And I was a beauty queen. Yeah. It's just and I also volunteered with the Miss Oregon program for a couple years doing business development, like doing booking for Miss Oregon. My, my job history is a weird thing to put in front of someone. Like they'd have to take a risk on a junior level employee. But I had a friend who was working for an IT recruiting firm in town. Okay. It's just a small 10 person shop, and they were looking for a recruiter. And recruiter is an entry level kind of sales type role. is it recruiting. And I ended up taking that job because it was that, or. Work at, work another front desk job. And I was just about to explode working at front desks, feeling like my brain could do more than this. Now that's not a great job for a lot of people, but it just wasn't what, it wasn't creatively stimulating to me. Sure. And so I was like, sure, let's try recruiting. So I. Music took up a 10%, 10 to 20% of my life. Okay. For, the five to nine, the learn about it. Take the scenic route. Yeah. While I started to learn about Nashville from the business standpoint and the, ah, yeah. So getting involved with Nashville from like a technology. For my technology sales seat. Sure. And so that that's been a lot of my creative energy over the past few years. I don't, this is a long conversation, a lot about me, which is like almost anxiety inducing, but these questions keep coming yeah. I just feel like I have to give the answer as it actually is, like you asked, how has my, how have things progressed since 2018? And the answer is, I got a job that I didn't expect I'd be really passionate about. Which is working for 40 au for this dev shop. Yeah. And it's a team of software engineers. It's 130 of 'em now. Yeah. And I get to. it's, it feels like it runs in parallel with my music pursuit because a lot of the people that work for our company are developers and this is the job that they wanna do. this is the dream job that they went to school for, or they went back to school for, to reinvent themselves, or they just got really passionate about writing code and taught themselves. And so my job is getting to be a talent. Yep. I go out and I get to find the stage for them to go sing on. Oh, that's cool. And I think about that in my own life and can treat it with the same intensity that I would hope that someone would treat, my artistic pursuit, as someone who loves to sing and be on stage and create music. That's allowed me to learn about business and can I get a lot of confidence back as far as like someone who's pursuing a career or someone who wants to. Be in charge of my own destiny. Yeah. Over the past few years. And I think that built up a lot of confidence. That helped me finally get to a point music wise, where I was like, okay, I think I've learned a I've taken the scenic route, I've learned a little bit about business. I learned a little bit more about music. I think I need needed to see both sides of those things in order to actually make music be a stable part of my life. Yeah. And not. not a fleeting part of my life. So I've been pursuing my music from a more of a business standpoint recently,

Derek Brown: 00:37:32

that's awesome. And do you feel like you're in your bag now? Like you feel like this is what I'm supposed to be doing? I don't,

Caroline McGowan: 00:37:40

I'm at a plateau. Yeah. This is all I, right now, my life is in a really cool chapter. Okay. I have this job that I really like that has opened up new areas of my brain. Okay. To. It's given me a lot of validation. It's given me a lot of opportunity to meet interesting people and just become a better, smarter, contributing member of society. Yeah. I also have this music thing, which I've learned how to express myself with. I've also learned how to have a team to help me express myself better and getting to the point where I had those, been able to create these two worlds for myself to live is really awesome. And now I have to ask. where do I wanna take these things? Yeah. Because that was never the goal. The goal was just get here, get a job. I like make music and like the music that I make. And that was like enough of a journey as it is. And I feel like I'm finally just like being like, okay, shit, we got here, but what's

Derek Brown: 00:38:33

next? Yeah. So last question along those lines. Okay. And then we'll wrap up, I promise. Okay. You've lived a lot of lives. even when you talk about your current life, it's chapter. right? Yeah. Do you feel like you're building Caroline Mcgon, or do you feel like you're acting in a number of different roles in sequence?

Caroline McGowan: 00:38:53

Oh yeah. This is all part of the master plan. Yeah. Yeah. This is, I feel like karmically, like I've been probably one of my last lives. I feel like I have always had this innate intention with every choice that I've made. While I've been making it for the sake of the future looking back, which might just be an absolute delusion, I'm so aware of that. But,

Derek Brown: 00:39:19

You also won't know, like it's almost impossible to know whether that's accurate or not until Yeah. Yeah.

Caroline McGowan: 00:39:27

Until, yeah, un until the apocalypse comes and we meet whatever maker there is, Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, no, this is all part of the master plan. I wanna live a big, full life. I feel like I'm an artist. Yeah. And I think my medium is my life. And my days and the people I fill it with and the projects that I fill it with and the travels that I go on and everything contributes to who I hope to be as a person. I just wanna be, at the end of the day, I wanna look. I came out of a burning smoking building. Yep. And you'd be like, whew, that was great.

Derek Brown: 00:40:06

That's awesome. Yeah. Very cool. So we wrap up with some favorite spots around town. Favorite spot to eat anything. Could be fancy, could be dive, could be anything. Thistle farm. Okay. Yeah. I love Thistle Farms. The cafe, right?

Caroline McGowan: 00:40:22

Yeah. Right Anywhere you can get a chicken salad sandwich in this town, you'll find me. Okay. I love a chicken salad sandwich. What can I

Derek Brown: 00:40:29

say? That's a fun one. Favorite coffee shop, man. I don't know. Yeah. There's a lot I. Or Mint Tea Shop as it were. Mint Tea Shop. Also Thistle Farms. Oh my

Caroline McGowan: 00:40:43

God, no. My favorite coffee shop is probably steadfast. Okay. I go there the most but I have a bone to bake with them right now because I feel like the last five times that I've gone, my cup has been leaking. Oh my gosh. I

Derek Brown: 00:40:57

know.

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At

Caroline McGowan: 00:40:58

the seam. Yep. At the seam. And so I keep going. It's like this, it's, I feel like I'm in like a Seinfeld episode every time it goes. Like it's my favorite coffee shop of the cup. So they're always leaking and it's do you tell 'em? Do you tell 'em that the cups are leaked? Do you just let it go? They don't have any control over the cups. They just buy 'em anyway. Okay. I'll stop without comedy bit. No

Derek Brown: 00:41:18

Everybody loves Larry. David. So have you tried turning the lid to line up with the sea? that was always my trick. This no. On the coffee cup, that leaks. Oh. So the sippy part, if it's opposite the seam, it will leak less steadfast. If you're listening, that doesn't recuse you from having bad cups, however, maybe a trick.

Caroline McGowan: 00:41:41

I don't know. I'll have to try it. Yeah. I don't know. It's always too late by the time I

Derek Brown: 00:41:47

find out. Yeah. You know what I mean? You're like in the car, coffee salad. Oh

Caroline McGowan: 00:41:50

yeah. It's on my sleeve. Yep.

Derek Brown: 00:41:52

Anyway. A hundred percent. So we've covered chicken salad, we've covered coffee. what about favorite spot for drinks or to go out or do an open mic? Where should people be going?

Caroline McGowan: 00:42:02

Nightlife. I got a shout out. Bobby Sauer. I love Bobby's. I don't go there enough. I used to live closer and pop in all the time, but you can actually go to Bobby's Idol Hour and play a little Game of Ice Spy because they hung my old Miss Oregon photo on the wall. of headshot, That's how much I used to go to Bobby's idle hour. But Josh is awesome. And I feel like that's an amazing place to just catch some songwriters and actually get part of the heart of the national songwriting community. I always felt like that was somewhere that I could go by myself and it wouldn't be weird, like I didn't go to just drink by myself. I went, cause I knew that if I sat at the bar long enough, like I'd strike up a conversation and make a new friend find something in common with someone. So I think that makes that place really special. Very

Derek Brown: 00:42:44

cool. What would you say to someone out there right now listening who's heard your story? They're wrestling with starting something. They're wrestling with their next chapter. They're trying to put together these pieces where they can do their passion stably. What piece of advice, if any, would you give to them?

Caroline McGowan: 00:43:02

First, I'd say be brutally honest what you want. With yourself. Yeah. I wanted to sing for a lot longer than I knew how to ask for. So I would say, learn how to ask for help tactfully. I think sometimes you take that too far, start asking everyone for help, start first, be brutally honest with what it is that you really want. That would be almost, it feels almost overwhelming to think about. It makes your cheeks out and you go, oh gosh, really? Me? I really couldn't possibly think of something so amazing in my life. Yeah. Like a genie level. I think that's what we really want. I think you have to be that honest. And then I would say one thing that I feel like has worked for me is take a scenic route. And if, it's helped me a lot to have a full-time job while I've been pursuing my art, because I've been able to, pay for things, like guitar lessons. Yep. When I needed them, because you need people on your team, and if it's someone's job, Help people in a way that you need that help professionally. Don't be afraid. Put yourself in a see if you can. Put yourself in a position to be able to work with those people and like still support yourself along the way. I think it's just been really helpful. Listen it, I would love to pursue music full-time. I would love to, that be my primary source of income, but I also would've never discovered that I actually really like the business. if I had been limited in my view of what I could do to support myself. So I would say be realistic about making money so that you can make things happen for yourself. And be brutally honest. Yeah. About what it is that you want.

Derek Brown: 00:44:35

That's fantastic advice. And for those of you listening, the dichotomy between all of the many lives and things that Carolina's done while also taking the scenic route is not to be ignored, go slow. And over time you'll have a plethora of experiences. Time to shamelessly plug. Where can people follow you, find you online music you want to plug, et

Caroline McGowan: 00:44:57

cetera. If you're from the business world, you can find me on LinkedIn. My name is Caroline McGowen, and I work for a company called 40 A U. If you are into. What I'll call road trip country. You can find me on Instagram or Spotify or any of your streaming platforms as Caroline Kidd. That is k i d. Yeah. And if you just, don't be shy about reaching out if you're in Nashville and you just wanna network I love to network and build community and make this town smaller. That's an open invitation.

Derek Brown: 00:45:23

That's awesome. Give Wyoming a listen. It's fantastic. Thanks everybody for listening. Have a.